Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
The National Assembly for Wales



Y Pwyllgor Deisebau
The Petitions Committee



Dydd Mawrth, 1 Gorffennaf 2014

Tuesday, 1 July 2014




Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon

Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions


Deisebau Newydd

New Petitions


Y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am Ddeisebau Blaenorol
Updates to Previous Petitions


Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod.


The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included.


Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance


Russell George

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

Bethan Jenkins

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

William Powell

Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
Welsh Liberal Democrats (Committee Chair)

Joyce Watson



Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance


Kayleigh Driscoll

Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Steve George


Helen Roberts

Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser

Kath Thomas

Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk


Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:04.
The meeting began at 09:04.


Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon
Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions


[1]               William Powell: Bore da, bawb. Welcome, everyone, to this penultimate Petitions Committee meeting of this Assembly term. We have a full complement of Members with no apologies or substitutions, and the normal housekeeping arrangements apply.


Deisebau Newydd
New Petitions


[2]               William Powell: We will move straight to item 2 and the new petitions. The first is petition P-04-567, A Fair Deal for Welsh Students. This petition was submitted by Mr Trevor Mayes and has the support of 18 signatures. The text reads as follows:


[3]               ‘We call upon the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh government to address growing commercialisation and introduce an open and transparent system to scrutinise the standards of service to students and value for public money offered by the Higher Education sector in Wales, and to ensure changes in service levels are subject to public consultation. To include: 1. A Welsh student complaints process with compulsory compensation, greater transparency and accountability than the current English scheme. 2. The teaching aspect of Higher Education Institutions should be subject to similar standards and safeguards as schools and colleges. 3. Statutory regulation, the Quality Assurance Agency as a registered charity with no powers of intervention is no longer fit for purpose. 4. The Letter of Understanding between the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales to provide value for money should include public complaint via the Welsh Audit Office. 5. An effective Whistle Blower process.’


[4]               This is our first consideration of this new petition. I think that, in line with our practice, it would be sensible for us to write in the first instance to the Minister for Education and Skills to seek his views. Colleagues, are you happy for us to take that approach?


[5]               Bethan Jenkins: Yr unig beth yr hoffwn ei ychwanegu yw’r ffaith ein bod wedi cael deiseb â rhai o’r pwyntiau hyn arni yn y gorffennol, os nad yr holl bwyntiau hyn. Felly, byddwn yn ei licio pe bai’r tîm yn gallu edrych yn yr archif i weld beth yn gymwys yr oedd honno’n ei ddweud fel y gallwn weld beth sydd wedi digwydd yn barod. Dyna i gyd.


Bethan Jenkins: The only thing that I would like to add is the fact that we have received a petition with some of these points in it in the past, if not all of these points. So, I would like it if the team could look into the archive to see exactly what that petition said, so that we can see exactly what has happened already. That is the only thing that I would suggest.

[6]               William Powell: Diolch yn fawr. I am sure that that would be very good for the wider context. Are colleagues happy that we request that? I see that you are; excellent. So, let us do precisely that.


[7]               The next is P-04-568, Public Inquiry into ABMU Health Board—that is, Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board. This petition was submitted by the ABMU victim support group and it has the support of 87 signatures. The text reads as follows:


[8]               ‘We call upon the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh Government to hold a full public inquiry in order to investigate the serious concerns raised about standards of care and complaints handling within ABMU Health Board that have caused so much avoidable harm and suffering for patients and bereaved relatives at hospitals administered by the Board and its predecessor bodies and, where necessary, to hold the Chief Executive and the Management Team to account.’


[9]               Some of us met the petitioners when they presented the petition, but we have taken no action as yet on it. I think that, in line with practice, we should write in the first instance to the Minister for Health and Social Services to seek his view on the petition. Is that not a sensible start? Joyce, you have indicated.


[10]           Joyce Watson: Chair, may I declare an interest in this matter? I have a close family member who works in this health board.


[11]           William Powell: Thank you for putting that on the record, Joyce. I think that that is probably a sensible first point of—


[12]           Bethan Jenkins: Wel, ie, fel yr oeddwn yn ei ddweud, gallwn wneud hynny yn gyntaf, a phan gawn ateb, byddwn am inni fynd at y bwrdd iechyd lleol a hefyd i’r cyngor iechyd lleol er mwyn inni gael darlun clir o’r hyn sy’n digwydd yno. Hefyd, rwyf wedi cefnogi’r ddeiseb hon, ac mae cwestiynau wedi bod i’r Prif Weinidog ar hwn. Felly, i lawr y lein, hoffwn i wneud bach yn fwy o waith ar y mater.


Bethan Jenkins: As I said, we could do that first of all, but then we get a response, I would want us to go to the local health board and also to the local health council, so that we can have a clear picture of what is happening there. Also, I have supported this petition, and questions have been put to the First Minister on this. So, down the line, I would like to do more work on this.

[13]           William Powell: Thanks. I think that that is a sensible first step. In the letter that I shall write on behalf of our committee, I shall express the urgency of the matter, hopefully to get a speedy response so that we can get into the depth of the issue. Thank you, colleagues.




Y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am Ddeisebau Blaenorol
Updates to Previous Petitions


[14]           William Powell: We start with P-04-472, Make the MTAN law. This petition, as we will recall, was submitted by Dr John Cox and was first considered on 16 April 2013. It has the support of 680 signatures. There is an associated petition that has a further 330 signatures. You will recall the text, which we have in front of us. There are a number of actions that we have undertaken on this one. We have had evidence sessions with the petitioners, and, after a period of waiting, because of due process, we had the opportunity also to scrutinise the Minister, Carl Sargeant, on these matters. Now, there are a number of issues that we have considered.


[15]           We wrote to the Minister and we have had a response from him, and, indeed, we have also had a response from Tim Peppin, the relevant director at the Welsh Local Government Association. We have that in our public papers. We have a couple of options here. First, I suppose that we could report the matter, in the round, to the Assembly by means of a report. I should also point out that we have had a significant volume of correspondence and a recent letter from Lynne Neagle, who has taken a lead on this matter as a local constituency Assembly Member and who is very much at the front line on some of these issues. I want to put that on the record as well.


[16]           Bethan Jenkins: I only have the one from 19 March. Has she written again?


[17]           William Powell: No. I think that that is the most recent correspondence. However, last time, we gave some consideration to calling the Planning Inspectorate in. I recall that and that is an option before us. The Minister has clearly given an indication that that might not be an entirely fruitful exercise and it might be rather constrained by the context of things, but it is a route that is open to us, or, as I said earlier, we could draw these strands together and bring it into the format of a report that might then trigger a Plenary debate, which, I am sure that relevant colleagues would also appreciate. I would value your thoughts as to how best to move forward on this one.


[18]           Bethan Jenkins: I think that we should have a debate now. Obviously, I have to declare an interest, because I have been active in this campaign as well, as I chair the Wales against opencast mining committee. If we have Planning Inspectorate officials in, they might just give us the same type of thing as the Minister has given us in terms of not being able to specifically comment on cases. That is really what we want, in terms of being able to understand why it has been interpreted in different ways. The research that the Minister has given us in a link suggests that a review of the MTAN should happen. So, I think, in that debate, we could potentially explore those avenues and probe the Minister further.


[19]           William Powell: Okay, yes, and the route, hopefully, to triggering that would be to draw the strands together in the form of a short report.


[20]           Bethan Jenkins: Yes, that is what I mean. The basis of the debate would be a short report from this committee.


[21]           William Powell: Absolutely. I think, in the context of your declaration and your ongoing work in this area, I should declare that I have attended a couple of demonstrations and spoken once recently on the steps of the Senedd and once in Ystrad Mynach on the proposed applications there. So, just for clarity, I should also put that matter on the record. I am happy for us to commission a short report to summarise the history of this to date with a view, hopefully, to a debate in the autumn. Russell, did you indicate that you wanted to speak?


[22]           Russell George: No, I have not indicated, Chair, and I have no interest to declare, but I concur with what Bethan has suggested.


[23]           William Powell: Excellent. Joyce.


[24]           Joyce Watson: Just to complete the round, I have no interest to declare and also, in the light of the Minister’s letter, which says that each case has to be taken on its merit, the Planning Inspectorate would not be able to say anything—


[25]           William Powell: No, it would not add value.


[26]           Joyce Watson: —because that is the rule that he has to work to and quite rightly so. I think that the only avenue open to us now is a debate in the Chamber, when the Minister will answer, and for there to be the pulling together of all of the strands of evidence that we have received.


[27]           William Powell: Excellent. We have unanimity on this one and that is the route that we will go down.


[28]           We move now to P-04-519, Abolition of Park Homes Sales Commission. This petition was submitted by the Caerwnon Park Residents Association and was first considered by us on 10 December last year. You may recall the aspiration, which is


[29]           ‘to urge the Welsh Government to remove from Legislation the right of Park Owners to demand commission on the private sale of park homes’.




[30]           We last considered this on 29 April and gave consideration to correspondence from the Minister for Housing and Regeneration. We asked the Minister to keep us, as a committee, apprised of developments on the consultation on regulations arising from the Mobile Homes (Wales) Act 2013, and for us to share with him the petitioners’ concerns. Now, we have a ministerial response in our public papers. As you can see, at this stage, the Minister is reluctant to actually accede to the request for a meeting with the petitioner. I know that the constituency Assembly Member, Kirsty Williams, who has been active in this field for some time, has, I believe, also given some support to the petitioner, and has possibly also made a request for a meeting with the Minister. So, I do not know what our views are on this particular issue. Obviously, it has been a matter of quite significant debate within the Assembly over the last year or so, in the context of the Mobile Homes (Wales) Act 2013. Colleagues, do you have any thoughts on this one?


[31]           Bethan Jenkins: The trouble is, if the Minister has already said ‘no’, I am just wondering where we can go. I mean, we can ask again, if the committee feels that it is pertinent to do so, but I know from my own experience that, sometimes, if you ask—


[32]           William Powell: You get a more emphatic ‘no’ than before. [Laughter.]


[33]           Bethan Jenkins: Although, if you ask lots of times, you may in the end wear them down, which I have done with one Minister. [Laughter.]


[34]           William Powell: You vary your technique according to the individual Minister. [Laughter.]


[35]           Bethan Jenkins: Yes. It may work. So, I think, perhaps, we could try that as a last resort.


[36]           William Powell: Joyce, would you consent to that approach?


[37]           Joyce Watson: Yes, because I think that it is the only one left to us. However, Carl Sargeant, the Minister, has pointed out that they have gone down this route because they are trying to help people on fixed incomes, which is what runs through everything that he says. As a consequence, it is about people living there, rather than selling their homes, where he has favoured his approach, so that those people are not disadvantaged in terms of the day-to-day costs of living in a park home, and has brought very positive legislation through—


[38]           William Powell: Absolutely, and that had support in the Assembly.


[39]           Joyce Watson: —which we all support. This is a separate issue to that, and it is about the 10% commission fee, but he is not at the moment minded to change that in any way at all. As far as I can understand from what I have read, the petitioners have seen that letter; it seems to me that their response is to that letter. There is not an awful lot more that we can really do, but I am quite happy to go along—


[40]           William Powell: I would be happy to appeal to his curiosity, in terms of exploring the issue a little more, and teasing it out, if we think that that will be a profitable approach. So, with your consent, I will do that. Good.


[41]           We now move to another item on which the Minister for Housing and Regeneration has played a key role. This is petition P-04-536, Stop Factory Dairy Farming in Wales. This petition was submitted by the World Society for the Protection of Animals, and was first considered on 18 February 2014. You will recall the context of the petition—the wording of it is here in full as an aide memoire for us today, regarding technical advice note 6 on planning for sustainable rural communities. The specific context that is cited in the petition was the application for a very large dairy unit at Leighton Farm, Welshpool, Powys. Joyce, you have indicated that you wish to speak.


[42]           Joyce Watson: I have been involved in this, and I have spoken to the petitioners, and I have advised them on how to take things forward. I am only saying that to put it on the record. I would be particularly interested in doing a piece of work on this, I have to say, because we have significant amounts of evidence that have come forward about health impacts, on humans and on animals. We have evidence, and two cases, that worry me significantly, I have to say, about pollution. We have evidence that says that Natural Resources Wales has not taken the action that, according to the letter we have received, it should have taken and that it would have been appropriate for it to take, and that it does not seem to have made any statement about the environmental impacts of intensive dairy farming. Now, I am sure that everybody here, like me, takes those statements very seriously. I think that I feel the need to look at that further. We have an example here of somebody who had 500 cows, then 1,000 cows and another has 2,500 cows. The slurry pit—. Clearly, most of those were done outside the planning regulations, and we have two cases of retrospective planning consent just being handed over, so it seems, without any recourse for the people living close by and the environment that has been affected. I would very much welcome an opportunity to look at that more seriously.


[43]           I am also a member of the Environment and Sustainability Committee, and I would very much like to see whether it will take the piece of work on. I suspect that it will not because we have three Bills going through.


[44]           William Powell: There is big legislation going through—


[45]           Joyce Watson: We have to ask, but I do not think that there is any capacity there. I think that the only capacity there is sits here.


[46]           William Powell: Russell, you have indicated that you wish to speak.


[47]           Russell George: Yes, thank you, Chair. I agree that there is a great deal of public interest in this issue, and I think that I agree that it would be useful to have some sort of report, whether that is done here or by the environment committee. It would be better to be done by the environment committee, but, as Joyce says—


[48]           William Powell: We are aware of the capacity issues. There is the issue of capacity here, too.


[49]           Russell George: I am concerned about the capacity on this committee as well, but I agree that it would be good to do that. Where that sits, I do not know. We would have to give that some consideration. I do think it is worth us also at least writing in the first instance to the Minister asking him to comment on the latest correspondence, given the decision of the court.


[50]           William Powell: I think that we should do that as a matter of course. I am happy to put that in train.


[51]           Joyce Watson: May I suggest that we write to NRW? I mean, there is an awful lot in this that actually cites NRW, and I think that it has to at least be afforded the opportunity to answer the allegations and make a statement about them.


[52]           William Powell: Thank you, Joyce. I am aware of quite a lot of common cause between this issue and one or two other developments that I am aware of within the region that relate to very large-scale anaerobic digestion facilities in the proximity of significant settlements, too. I do not know whether you feel, on the basis of comments you have made, Joyce, that that would blur the issue or indeed whether that, potentially, would be part of a more holistic study about the impact of large-scale facilities of that type. There is a lot of common ground. Of course, smell is a key concern as is pollution of the water table—


[53]           Joyce Watson: As is ammonia.


[54]           William Powell: Indeed.


[55]           Joyce Watson: Conjunctivitis caused by ammonia. There is one person there who is citing the example of her two children, with the daughter being more severely affected than the son. There is medical evidence backing that up saying that, you know, ‘Yes, this is as a consequence of living with high levels of ammonia’. All of those things might have some crossover, but, you know, you are talking about a consideration of the anaerobic digestion. However, I think that, somehow, that is another whole inquiry—


[56]           William Powell: Yes, it may well be—


[57]           Joyce Watson: The team is thinking, ‘Wow’. However, you know, these are serious issues for people.


[58]           William Powell: The role of NRW and the transparency of its dealings is also an important strand of these matters.


[59]           Joyce Watson: Absolutely.


[60]           William Powell: So, I would be happy to ask our colleagues whether they can scope out the potential for such a focused piece of work, while certainly writing to the Minister seeking his views on the petitioners’ comments post the recent High Court case. I suppose that we will also give some consideration to writing to Alun Ffred Jones, as Chair of the Environment and Sustainability Committee, but all three of us have been aware of the workload constraints that that particular committee is dealing with at this time.


[61]           Bethan Jenkins: A allaf ofyn cwestiwn? A ydym wedi ysgrifennu at yr awdurdodau lleol? Mae’r dystiolaeth yn dweud nad yw nifer o awdurdodau wedi ateb yng nghyd-destun polisïau cynllunio yn y mater hwn, ac nad oedd gan y rhai a oedd wedi ateb bolisïau clir.


Bethan Jenkins: May I ask a question? Have we written to the local authorities? The evidence says that a number of local authorities have not responded in the context of planning policy in this matter, and that those that have answered did not have clear policies.

[62]           Mr George: Nac ydym.


Mr George: No; we have not.

[63]           Bethan Jenkins: Efallai y byddai hynny yn ein helpu ni.


Bethan Jenkins: Perhaps that would help us.

[64]           Mr George: Rwy’n cytuno, ond rwy’n meddwl y byddai’n well aros i weld a fyddwn yn gwneud unrhyw fath o inquiry. Gallwn ysgrifennu at y Gweinidog yn y lle cyntaf, at NRW ac yn y blaen, a gallwn gynnwys llythyr at awdurdodau lleol pan ddaw’n amser i wneud inquiry.


Mr George: I agree, but I think that it would be better to wait to see if we will be holding any kind of inquiry. We can write to the Minister in the first place, to NRW and so on, and we can include a letter to local authorities when the time comes to do an inquiry.

[65]           Bethan Jenkins: Ie, roeddwn yn meddwl ei fod yn eithaf diddorol. Mae’n debyg iawn i’r MTAN, mewn ffordd, o ran bod gwahanol farn a gwahanol ddehongliadau o’r hyn sydd yn digwydd. Hefyd, y mater sy’n bwysig i mi yw lles anifeiliaid. Nid wyf yn deall sut mae’r un math o anghenion gan fferm sy’n parchu’r anifeiliaid, ac sy’n gadael iddynt gerdded o gwmpas, a fferm sydd â buchod mewn un lle bach iawn. Nid wyf yn gallu deall hynny. Mae’r un peth yn wir gyda gwahanol anifeiliaid sy’n free range ac yn y blaen, neu’n organig; maen nhw’n well oherwydd eu bod yn cael lles gwell yn y lle cyntaf. Felly, byddai hynny’n elfen o ddiddordeb i mi.


Bethan Jenkins: Yes, I thought that it was quite interesting. It is very similar to the MTAN, in a way, in that there is a difference of opinion and different interpretations of what is happening. Also, the important point for me is animal welfare. I cannot understand how the same requirements exist for a farm that respects the animals, and allows them to roam freely, and a farm that keeps cattle in a very restricted environment. I cannot understand that. The same is true with different animals that are free range and so on, or organic; they are better because their welfare is better cared for in the first place. So, that would be an element of interest for me. 


[66]           Joyce Watson: The animal welfare is a significant factor. The letter again talks about the Irish example. You get your yield according to the way you treat your animals. You do not need to feed them intensively with high-protein feed that then has an impact—it is evidenced here—on the smell that is passed on through the slurry.


[67]           William Powell: Through the natural process; absolutely. We have quite a bit of scoping to do on this one. Russell, do you want the last word on this one?


[68]           Russell George: I was just going to say that part of the issue is that there is no guidance on this from Welsh Government to local authorities, and I think that there should be. However, if we have an inquiry, or if a report comes forward, that is something that can be looked at.


[69]           William Powell: Of course, the marriage of the Countryside Council for Wales and the Environment Agency Wales into NRW is an interesting one, in terms of the different skill sets and the different perspectives that those bodies came from originally. When this application started, they were discrete bodies; they are now together, with some of the growing pains that we are all aware of. Excellent; we have a range of actions there that are ready to be put in hand.


[70]           We move on now to P-04-521, Regulating Caravan Sites. This petition was submitted by Mr Brian Sylvester and was first considered on 10 December 2013. It reads:


[71]           ‘We call upon the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh Government to investigate whether legislation relating to safety of holiday and residential caravan parks in Wales is adequate and/or properly enforced. If not, we urge the Welsh Government to take appropriate action.’


[72]           Mr Sylvester and his supporters go on to name a number of issues, including issues around the storage of bottled gas and specifics around the siting of caravans and other combustible structures within the perimeter of said site. We last considered the petition on 11 March and we agreed to write to the fire and rescue authorities seeking their views and to seek their evaluation of the risks that are of concern to the petitioner, as well as the Minister for Local Government and Government Business, given her wider responsibility for community safety, and the various umbrella bodies that represent the sector. All have responded, to be fair, and responded in a very comprehensive way, some of them citing previous involvement with a specific issue and with the gentleman who is promoting the petition. In particular, we see that the Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Authority goes into very specific detail on this matter.




[73]           I suppose that I should declare an interest, particularly as I am mentioned as one of a number of people who had received some notification from the fire and rescue authority. This matter is something that came to me and a significant number of others as a casework item, and I have had some dealings on it. So, I would welcome your thoughts, colleagues, on the best way forward, given that we appear to be running close to the end of this particular cycle.


[74]           Joyce Watson: We have come to the end of this particular cycle, in my view. It has had a thorough airing. We have been given plenty of correspondence that tells us that the petitioner has written several times and has had replies, none of which he finds acceptable and, it seems, none of which he is going to find acceptable. In terms of what we can do to take it forward, there is nothing. We can do no more than we have already done. So, I am going to move to close the petition.


[75]           William Powell: Thank you, Joyce. Russell, you indicated that you would like to speak.


[76]           Russell George: I know that the relevant committee, which has been scrutinising Darren Millar’s Bill on regulating caravan sites, has been looking at this issue—well, I am not sure about this specific issue—recently. I am happy that we have done as much as we can as the Petitions Committee. I am happy to agree with Joyce’s suggestion that the petition is closed, but it might be useful as well if we do just send the correspondence that we have received to the relevant committee and ask it to note that.


[77]           William Powell: I would be very happy to write to Darren Millar and his supporters, as they are looking to take forward his piece of legislation to the next stage.


[78]           Russell George: We should write, perhaps, to the committee that is scrutinising it and to Darren Millar, who is bringing the Bill forward.


[79]           William Powell: I am very happy to do that, and to write to Mr Silvester thanking him for bringing this forward in the way that he has and advising him of our course of action. Are colleagues agreed? I see that you are. Excellent.


[80]           We now move to discuss P-04-540, Stop Sexism In Domestic Abuse. This petition was submitted by Healing Men and has collected 238 signatures. It was first considered by this committee on 10 December 2013. We have also had the opportunity to meet the lead petitioner; there was some engagement with him on that occasion and there has been further engagement subsequently. We considered the petition on 11 March and agreed a suite of actions. We have written to the Minister for Local Government and Government Business to seek her views on the petition and to ask whether the proposed ending violence against women and domestic abuse Bill would address those issues. We also wrote to Welsh Women’s Aid for its view on the statistics provided by the petitioner.


[81]           In our public papers today, we have the ministerial response and a response on the views from the Minister that has come directly from the petitioner. We have not received, as yet, a response from Welsh Women’s Aid, which, I think, is due to an administrative problem, which it is addressing. It has undertaken to get back to us shortly on this. I am also aware that there was a statement very recently—I am not sure whether it was yesterday, or just before—on the Gender-based Violence, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Bill, which may well address some of these issues. Joyce, you have indicated that you wish to speak.


[82]           Joyce Watson: It does address some of these issues, but I still have an issue with the wording of this petition. I spoke to the petitioner when he was here. The wording of the petition reads:


[83]           ‘This Petition invites an alternative approach that recognises that 86% of DA is the responsibility of both women and men.’


[84]           That is not factually correct, and I challenged him on that.


[85]           William Powell: Yes, I was present.


[86]           Joyce Watson: The petitioner conceded that that is not factually correct during that conversation. So, I find it disappointing that someone would know that they had written something that is misleading, but chose to write it just the same. So, for me, that does not sit well, and I want to put that on record. Having said that, and moving forward, we had the launch yesterday of the Government’s commitment to ending domestic abuse. It is not now called the ending violence against women Bill; it is actually a gendered Bill. So, in that respect, I suppose that the petitioner should be satisfied regarding some parts of the petition, because that is what it was about. I am disappointed, but I accept that Welsh Women’s Aid has had problems that it is now addressing.


[87]           William Powell: It is a capacity issue, but it is addressing it.


[88]           Joyce Watson: It is a shame, because I know that it does excellent work and I am sure that it will put that right. In terms of the petition, I suggest that we write to the group now, and ask, in light of the statement and also its opportunity to feed into the Bill, because it is out to consultation, two things: whether it is going to feed into that process, and I presume that it will, and whether it feels that what it requested in this petition was met by the statement made by the Minister yesterday.


[89]           William Powell: We could write to seek its views in the round. While doing that, we also await the response from Welsh Women’s Aid, which I understand is on its way.


[90]           Mr George: If I could just clarify, there was a mix-up in terms of the correspondence with Welsh Women’s Aid. No blame has been attributed. That could well be a mix-up on our part. We have spoken to the organisation, and the response is in the process of being produced. We should have a response in time for consideration at the next meeting.


[91]           William Powell: It would be great if we could address that this term; that makes good sense.


[92]           Joyce Watson: That is good to hear; thank you.


[93]           Russell George: I was there for the discussion that we had with the petitioner, at which I think you were present, Chair, as was Joyce. I should just say that, on Joyce’s interpretation of the conversation with the petitioner and his response, the petitioner may have a different perception of that conversation.


[94]           William Powell: I am sure that he will draw that to our attention if he does.


[95]           Russell George: I think that it is only right, as he is not here to speak for himself, that I do say that. However, we should keep the petitioner updated on the next stage of the scrutiny of the gender-based violence Bill.


[96]           William Powell: It is a very live issue and, with the announcement of the Bill, it is really timely that we should deal with this matter. Hopefully, it will be on the agenda of our final meeting of this term.


[97]           We move now to P-04-544, Ban the Shooting of Greenland White-fronted Geese. This petition was submitted by Aaron Davies and collected 240 signatures. It was first considered on 29 April 2014. This petition was born of concerns particularly in the Dyfi estuary, where the shooting of Greenland white-fronted geese has been of particular concern, and where they wish to have things moved to a stronger footing than the current voluntary ban on the shooting of those particular geese.


[98]           The committee considered this petition for the first time and we agreed to write to the Minister for Natural Resources and Food seeking his perspective on it. The Minister has now kindly responded. We have also received an unsolicited response from the Welsh Ornithological Society. We have invited the petitioner, Mr Davies, to comment—that is Mr Aaron Davies, not Mr Alun Davies, who has responded to us—but we have not heard from the petitioner as yet. We have the text of both letters in our public papers. I suppose that it may be a step forward to see what Mr Alun Davies has to say about the views of the Welsh Ornithological Society, since he has, at this time, set his face against a ban on the shooting of said geese. However, he may well be open to persuasion; let us see.


[99]           Joyce Watson: First of all, I am a member of the RSPB, so I am going to put that on the record. So, it is fairly obvious where I am coming from. The final paragraph of the Minister’s letter says that he would reconsider if he had robust evidence of a rise in the actual shooting of these birds. Quite how you gather that, I am sure that I do not know. However, with that and with the, as you said, unsolicited, but nonetheless welcome, response of the Welsh Ornithological Society, I think it is worth going back to the Minister and the petitioner to see what their response may be.


[100]       William Powell: I am happy to write in that vein if colleagues are content.


[101]       Moving now to petition P-04-514, A Welsh clean coal and/or renewable energy power station instead of the proposed Wylfa B nuclear plant at Anglesey, this was submitted by Sovereign Wales and has collected 104 signatures and was first considered by us on 26 November last year. We previously considered correspondence on the petition and we agreed a series of actions: first, to write to the Minister to ask whether he would consider working in partnership with Hitachi regarding options for investing in clean coal technology in Wales, and to write to Hitachi regarding its work on developing such clean coal technology. We are grateful to the Minister for responding. His letter, along with comments on it from the lead petitioner, Sovereign Wales, are in our public papers. As yet, disappointingly, we have not heard from the management of Hitachi. I would be happy, if colleagues think it would be useful, to chase the company for a response, because, without that, I do not think that we are well placed to take these things forward. Are colleagues happy with that approach? You are. Thank you.


[102]       The next petition is P-04-408, Child and Adolescent Eating Disorder Service. This petition and petition P-04-505, Eating Disorder Unit in Wales, were previously grouped. The first petition, P-04-408, was submitted by Helen Missen and first considered by the committee on 17 July 2012, with the support of 246 signatures. I will read the opening paragraph of the text, for clarity’s sake:


[103]       ‘We call on the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh Government to fund the Child and Adolescent Eating Disorder Service in Wales to the same degree as the Adult Eating Disorder Service in Wales.’


[104]       We had a very useful evidence session with Helen Missen and other contributors, which colleagues will recall. We last considered correspondence on the petition on 29 April. We agreed to write to the Minister for Health and Social Services seeking his views on the further points that were raised by the petitioner. The important thing to pick up here, which was picked up by the petitioner in her comments on the correspondence, is that her particular concern was about parity with adult and younger person services. She felt that the Minister’s response was primarily looking at petition P-04-505, which came from Keira Marlow, which we had previously grouped with it. I think that it is correct to say that, in recent times, we have had no significant engagement or response from the latter petitioners. Is that correct? It is. So, it may be that the issues are no longer as they were in relation to Keira Marlow or that she feels that the issues have, to an extent, been addressed, whereas the issues that were thrown up by the first petition are very much still the case. I would appreciate it, Bethan, if you could clarify this.


[105]       Bethan Jenkins: I disagree with that interpretation. I know that Keira has been recording a song to do with her experiences of an eating disorder and she has launched a new campaign called Cwtched to intensify the campaign via the single. So, I am just advertising the single here.


[106]       William Powell: Thank you for that. It may well be that she has been—


[107]       Bethan Jenkins: I do not know whether it is worth trying to contact her again, because I think she is really keen; it is just that she has been concentrating on that particular part of the campaign. I would not want to take that away from her.




[108]       William Powell: She was a very committed campaigner when we met her in connection with this petition earlier on.


[109]       Bethan Jenkins: The thing is, all I want to try to think of is a way forward, because we have had responses on the unit and on the funding. The Children, Young People and Education Committee is carrying out an inquiry into child and adolescent mental health services at the moment, so I feel, to be fair to the petitions and how we can take them forward, that it may be that that evidence on Helen Missen’s concerns could be better progressed there. That is not to say that we cannot—. Should we do a report, because it may clash with what the Children, Young People and Education Committee does? I am the last person to say that we should not have a debate with regard to eating disorders, but is that going to be the best use of resources for everybody involved? Would Helen feel that taking part in the CAMHS inquiry would be more beneficial for her? Perhaps the clerking team can have a conversation with her about that, in terms of taking the CAMHS funding element forward. However, with regard to the unit, I suppose that if we talk to Keira about why she has not been so in touch with the team, as I have explained, we can come back to that at the next meeting.


[110]       William Powell: I would be happy to write to the relevant committee Chair as well, flagging this up, particularly if it is timely to do so, and also to write to Keira to ask, maybe, for details of her most recent initiative and also to re-engage with her, because, obviously, we were misguided in thinking that she had moved on to other things, because she has literally intensified her involvement. Thanks for setting the context for that. In doing so, I think that we are possibly decoupling the two petitions, because maybe the coupling has been less than productive and perhaps, on reflection, it is sensible to—


[111]       Bethan Jenkins: I think that it is because they do not know each other so well. The petitions are about two different things. It is fair enough, because they are separate types of funding for separate types of treatment.


[112]       William Powell: There was some overlap, but, clearly—


[113]       Bethan Jenkins: Yes, there is some overlap, because it is the same condition, and you need, potentially, to consider them together in the treatment plans, but—


[114]       William Powell: Maybe we are past that phase now and need to deal with them in a different way. Are colleagues happy with that set of actions? Good.


[115]       Moving now to P-04-456, Dementia—This Could Happen to you, this petition was submitted by Helen Jones, it was first considered by the committee on 19 February 2013, and has the support of 1,413 signatures. You will recall the key aspirations of the petitioner, as outlined in bullet points 1 and 2, which we have in front of us. We last considered this petition on 3 June, and we agreed that the committee should consider correspondence on the petition and ask the Minister to keep the committee closely informed of any further developments in this area and also ask the Minister to consider and clarify how he will draw lessons from the way in which the process has been looked at here for future consideration of new initiatives to ensure that the views and the experience of those directly affected are captured and taken on board. We have got a useful response from the Minister on that matter, and Helen Jones is engaged in the process, which, as we recall, was a positive outcome from the petition. So, I think at this stage, we just need to keep a watching brief on this issue. If we have not shared the Minister’s letter with the petitioner, I am sure that we should do so.


[116]       Joyce Watson: Absolutely, Chair. I think that this is a good outcome. This shows the impact of people bringing petitions here and getting a result in a very favourable light; the Minister has taken that on board. So, I am really pleased that this is the outcome, and I am sure that the petitioner will be satisfied in no small measure that she is being listened to.


[117]       William Powell: Absolutely, and we look forward to staying in close touch with her and, as I said, keeping a watching brief on this as things move forward. Excellent.


[118]       Next is P-04-490, Antiretroviral Medication in Cardiff. This petition was submitted by Joerg Thieme and was first considered by the committee on 18 June 2013. It has the support of 150 signatures. We considered correspondence on this matter on 25 March and agreed to write to the Minister to drill down with his officials as to how the figure of £15 million, as the estimated saving, had been arrived at and what portion of that could be attributed to savings derived from anti-retroviral HIV medication. We also asked for information on the specific reason for the current prescribing intervals for medication of that kind and we wrote to the petitioner, asking for his comments on the ministerial correspondence. We now have a further response from the Minister and further comments from the petitioner. It seems to me that this is a more helpful response, but we still have questions that are troubling the petitioner. It seems to me that it would be useful for us to write to the Minister for Health and Social Services to inquire as to what specific steps have been taken to take on board the views of HIV patients in formulating these guidelines because I do not think that that has been addressed in correspondence to date. Would colleagues be happy if I were to write in that vein? Are there any other thoughts that would be useful on this?


[119]       Joyce Watson: Having read all of the correspondence, the petitioner seems to be suggesting that the way we treat the dispensation of anti-retroviral drugs in Wales is somewhat different from that in England, so, therefore, he is opting for that. I can see both sides here and I think that I need clarity on this. If it is the case that, when patients first go on to anti-retroviral drugs, they have a 28-day prescribing cycle just in case those drugs do not suit them, I can see the value of that, because the cost can be enormous, but, if patients are settled in their treatment, whoever they might be and whatever their condition, and the Minister is saying that it is down to the prescriber—the GP or the doctor probably—and that they have freedom to increase that, I think that that is the bit that we need to get underneath. I am a little concerned about the fact that people, whoever they are, and not just the petitioner, have to go through the whole process of declaring their illness monthly. I do not know how that fits with others who are prescribed medication on a rota like this. If there is disparity, then we need to know why there is disparity, because that is what is being suggested here—that they are not being treated in the same way as others with other conditions. So, that is a key question for me, while accepting the need for those early on in their diagnosis, who might have some problems with the medication. Also, there is the point that the pharmacy is open only three days a week. If you are working, does that mean that you have to take time off to go to get your medication? It all seems odd to me and I am not satisfied that we have really got underneath why this is happening. So, I would certainly like further explanation.  


[120]       William Powell: Thank you very much, Joyce; you very much rehearsed some of the points that I recall us discussing with the petitioner and his supporters when he first brought the petition in—it was all around the issue of equity and impact on him and others with busy working or studying lives and things to deal with, and your argument for a differential approach for those who are establishing the nature of their treatment and for those on a more stable path. So, I think all of those issues are highly relevant. Would it be sensible to write also to any HIV patient groups that we can identify that—


[121]       Bethan Jenkins: Aids Trust Cymru is a good one; it is based in Swansea.


[122]       William Powell: Okay; Aids Trust Cymru in Swansea.


[123]       Bethan Jenkins: Would Stonewall have a view on something like this?


[124]       William Powell: It would have contacts, if it does not have a view. What about the Terrence Higgins Trust?


[125]       Bethan Jenkins: That is the one I was thinking of.


[126]       Joyce Watson: I could not think of the name.


[127]       Bethan Jenkins: There are probably more.


[128]       William Powell: We have a cluster there of relevant bodies.


[129]       Bethan Jenkins: I did stuff with Aids Trust Cymru when it told me that there was discrimination against people who had HIV in having access to dentists. They would not give them specific treatments. So, it is quite strong on issues of equality.


[130]       William Powell: The committee will be represented at Pride, which is coming up. So, we might be able to undertake some work on this in that connection. We will have to give that some consideration.


[131]       Joyce Watson: Have we had anything from the health board?


[132]       William Powell: We have had earlier correspondence from the health board, and it did not appear that it was opening up very much to the detailed questions that you raised.


[133]       Joyce Watson: Shall we ask it again then?


[134]       Bethan Jenkins: I cannot remember what it said.


[135]       William Powell: We can do so, but the key thing is—


[136]       Joyce Watson: We could look at what it said, and, if it has not answered, we can ask again.


[137]       William Powell: Okay, but in the meantime, we will seek clarification from the Minister on what his officials have done to seek the views of HIV patients, and we will go to the groups directly, as we have just enumerated.


[138]       We will move on now to discuss P-04-485, Abuse of casual contracts in Further Education. This petition was submitted by Briony Knibbs. It was first considered by the committee on 4 June 2013, and it has the support of 674 signatures.


[139]       ‘We call upon the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh Government to use its influence to ensure that the use of hourly paid (zero hour) and fixed term contracts are not abused in the Further Education sector and only used when there is a genuine objective justification for a short term contract with flexibility.’


[140]       We last considered correspondence on this petition on 8 October last year and agreed to seek to take oral evidence on the petition from the petitioner and to write to ColegauCymru. We also agreed to seek a summary of the consultation responses received on the petition from the Research Service, which could include any research carried out by the University and College Union. In our most recent consideration, we reflected that maybe some of the issues raised in the petition have been overtaken by events and that maybe we should reconsider the issue of the expediency of calling for oral evidence. Now, we have the research brief as a private paper today in our pack, and we have the opportunity to refer to that. In that context, I will be happy to hear your views about the best way forward on this matter.


[141]       Bethan Jenkins: I appreciate that this is a private paper, but it may be useful if we could make it public to share with the petitioners to see whether they have a view on it, because I am struggling to see where I can go, because I have been involved with the petition. Some colleges still use zero-hours contracts, but it would be useful to go back to them to see whether they have progressed anything as a union, to see whether we can complement it. If not, we can move to close the petition. So, perhaps we should make that one last-ditch attempt. I cannot see where we can go.


[142]       William Powell: If colleagues are content for us to share the research brief that we currently have as a private paper with Briony Knibbs and her fellow petitioners, that would make a lot of sense. We are a full academic year on, almost to the day, or a little beyond, from the submission of the petition. So, things may well have developed in that respect. So, I am happy to write to Briony Knibbs enclosing a copy of the private paper, and let us see what response is forthcoming.


[143]       Joyce Watson: Okay, I agree with that.


[144]       William Powell: The next item is P-04-516, Make political science compulsory in education. This petition was submitted by Mark Griffiths and it was first considered by the committee on 26 November 2013, and Mr Griffiths’s petition is supported by a further 12 signatures. It simply says,


[145]         ‘We call upon the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh Government to make political science a compulsory part of the school curriculum.’




[146]       We considered correspondence on this petition on 25 March, and we agreed to seek the petitioner’s views on the response that we had received from Huw Lewis, and also to seek further information from the steering group established to oversee revisions to the Welsh baccalaureate on any consideration that it had given to including an element on political science within that curriculum.


[147]       Bethan Jenkins: Did we get something back on that?


[148]       Mr George: No, we have not as yet.


[149]       William Powell: We need to double check on that correspondence and chase it, if necessary, because that is an important element, I think, in considering this in the round. We are also aware of the central role played by the questionnaire that our Assembly education team was carrying out, and we now have the results of that questionnaire. It is quite a substantial piece of work, with some interesting results in our papers today. I would certainly like to share the research paper with the petitioner, if colleagues are happy with that. What other measures would be useful just at the moment while we await further feedback from the Welsh baccalaureate team?


[150]       Bethan Jenkins: I suppose that we could share this also with Professor Donaldson, who is currently reviewing the curriculum, as it may help to inform him. When I met him he was very interested in how the baccalaureate could be improved. It may be that that would be useful for him as well because there is a consultation at the moment that he has initiated. I think that that would help. We could offer that the petitioners meet him because he is very willing to meet people.


[151]       William Powell: Yes. That could be quite fruitful.


[152]       Bethan Jenkins: The petitioners could have a proper discussion with him about what they would like to see as part of that qualification.


[153]       Joyce Watson: I agree.


[154]       William Powell: Recently, during the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association event that was hosted here, in which Joyce played a leading role, there was a very fruitful session. Perhaps there will be some notes that were captured from that debate around this very issue that might be worth feeding back to the petitioners, if colleagues are happy for us to do that.


[155]       Bethan Jenkins: The clerk was looking a bit confused, so I do not know whether you need to clarify what we—


[156]       Mr George: It is fine.


[157]       Bethan Jenkins: Are you sure? [Laughter.]


[158]       William Powell: Thank you for your empathy.


[159]       Mr George: I was simply going to say that the Presiding Officer is also doing work on youth engagement, and with the committee’s permission we would like to use these responses just to inform some of that, and perhaps to send out some more background material as well.


[160]       William Powell: Yes, I was going to suggest that. I think that that would be really relevant to what the Presiding Officer is seeking to do.


[161]       Mr George: That is part of the Assembly’s engagement with youth. Bear in mind that, in relation to the baccalaureate, the petition is obviously about teaching political science in the national curriculum whereas the baccalaureate is a narrower area.


[162]       Bethan Jenkins: Well, it may be that that is where it sits. It would be for the petitioners to talk to Professor Donaldson and have that discussion, I think. Sometimes you start out with a petition that would say this, but you may have to compromise on some levels, and it may be that that is where it could sit. If not, at least they have had the discussion. It is a door that has potentially opened.


[163]       William Powell: Yes. I think that that would be a result in itself.


[164]       Bethan Jenkins: If anyone can think of a better idea—


[165]       Joyce Watson: No, I cannot.


[166]       William Powell: No. If Professor Donaldson is in listening mode, then that is what we must do.


[167]       Bethan Jenkins: Yes, he is.


[168]       William Powell: Good. We now move to petition P-04-528, All Primary Schools in Wales taught through the medium of Welsh. This petition was submitted by Phillip Worth and was first considered by the committee on 21 January 2014. We have a suite of correspondence on this. We considered the petition for the first time on the previous occasion and we agreed to write, seeking views on the petition, to the following: the Minister for Education and Skills, Huw Lewis; the First Minister; and, indeed, the teaching unions in Wales. We have responses from the Minister, from the National Union of Teachers, and from Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru. These are available in our public papers. I think that it would be useful to share all of these responses with Mr Worth, to seek his comments or any response that he has got on the feedback we have received so far. I think that, as yet, we are still to hear from the First Minister, but it may well be that there will be a response forthcoming, given his overarching responsibility for the Welsh language. We will return to this once we have feedback from Mr Worth.


[169]       Mr George: I would not expect a response from the First Minister. I suspect that the response from the Minister for education—


[170]       William Powell: That they have liaised—


[171]       Mr George: On this point, yes.


[172]       Joyce Watson: That is because it is education; it is not language. It is on education, and the response is there in full from the Minister.


[173]       William Powell: Yes, it is a very comprehensive one from Huw Lewis.


[174]       We now move on to petition P-04-542, Practical Opportunities for Young People. It was submitted by George Colville and was first considered by the committee on 29 April 2014. It has the support of 32 signatures. It calls on the National Assembly for Wales,


[175]       ‘to urge the Welsh Government to provide more opportunities for unemployed young people to undertake voluntary work to help them develop new skills, particularly skills that are more practical in nature.’


[176]       We considered the petition for the first time and agreed to write to both the Deputy Minister for Skills and Technology and the Minister for the Economy, Science and Transport seeking their views. Indeed, it is the Deputy Minister for skills, Ken Skates, who is leading on this and who has supplied us with a very full response to Mr Colville’s proposals. I think that it would be sensible to write to the petitioner asking him for his views on the thoughts of Ken Skates.


[177]       Joyce Watson: Agreed.


[178]       William Powell: Good. We move now to petitions that we have previously considered in a grouped fashion under the economy, science and transport heading. The first is petition P-04-475, Wanted—Buses for Meirionnydd. This petition was submitted by Barbara Snowball and was first considered by the committee on 30 April 2013. It has the support of 174 signatures. We also have P-04-513, Save the Wrexham/Barmouth X94 bus service. This petition was submitted by Karen Dunford and was first considered by the committee on 11 November 2013. It has the support of 494 signatures. Finally, we have P-04-515, Increase Funding for Welsh Bus Services. This petition was submitted by Daniel Thomas and was first considered by the committee on 26 November 2013. It has the support of 246 signatures. Of course, more recently, we had Daniel Thomas before us as part of a scrutiny panel. We sought a scrutiny session with the Minister for transport, and she was not minded to accede to that request. However, she did kindly offer to answer a series of focused questions. We have worked up a draft of those questions in our papers. Colleagues, are you happy with those? Are there any additions or refinements that you would suggest we come up with in relation to the survey for the Minister?


[179]       Bethan Jenkins: The only thing is that I asked a few questions on bus regulations, so there is the issue of whether the Minister has had any discussions with the UK Government on that element. Obviously, it is non-devolved. I know that there were mixed responses, but even so—


[180]       William Powell: Yes, and that was reflected in our evidence session as well.


[181]       Bethan Jenkins: Yes. So, it would be useful to have the Government’s view on it. That is what I thought we could add to the questions. I think that everything else is covered.


[182]       William Powell: Yes, I would be happy to ask the Minister whether she has had any discussions on that vexed issue of regulation. Are you happy, Joyce?


[183]       Joyce Watson: Yes, I am quite happy. Chair, I would also like to offer my thanks, and I am sure the committee’s thanks, to the individuals—because these are individuals—who have brought these things forward, and while I do not usually like paying tribute to an individual, I am going to do so on this occasion, namely to Barbara Snowball, who has done—


[184]       William Powell: And I know that you have had significant engagement with her on the ground as well.


[185]       Joyce Watson: She has done tremendous work, even in producing her own timetable to inform people of how they can use the bus. She is a one-woman band.


[186]       William Powell: Absolutely. She is at least as active as some better-resourced groups that could be doing the same.


[187]       Joyce Watson: Yes, and she has done huge work in that vein. It is about sometimes recognising the work that individuals do to try to improve the services, not just for themselves, but for their community. That is why I would like to put it on record.


[188]       William Powell: Absolutely. Similarly, I have had some significant dealings with Karen Dunford. I think that she has been doing similar work—


[189]       Joyce Watson: Exactly the same.


[190]       William Powell: —for her people and the people who value so much the X94 service.


[191]       Joyce Watson: Exactly.


[192]       William Powell: We are extremely grateful also to Daniel Thomas for taking the time that he did. Daniel Thomas was very articulate in setting forward the arguments that underline his petition. So, I think that all three are to be congratulated in that way.


[193]       Joyce Watson: Quite right.


[194]       William Powell: Good. So, we have that ready to fire off to the Minister, and I think that that concludes—. We maybe just have a clarification.


[195]       Mr George: In addition to the paper from the Research Service with the questions to the Minister, there is also a summary of the bus users survey result in your papers, which, at this stage, is for information only.


[196]       William Powell: That might potentially inform a report that could subsequently be pulled together.


[197]       Mr George: Absolutely, yes. It is just that that was not particularly well drawn out in the brief.


[198]       Joyce Watson: Okay. That is fine. I have read it; it is interesting. There are not many from west Wales; only 3%.


[199]       William Powell: That is true.


[200]       I should remind colleagues that a petition presentation is scheduled for tomorrow, at 1 p.m.—the usual slot—and that is in relation to bus services in Burry Port. It relates to access to health services. So, we are already coming to meet your concern, Joyce, because a group of activists from the Llanelli area are going to be available to talk to their petition when we make ourselves available tomorrow to meet them.


[201]       The final meeting of the term will be on Tuesday, 15 July. I should just flag up that members of the petitions team will be present this weekend at the Aberavon Beach Festival, flagging up the work that the petitions service carries out. I look forward to joining them during the course of the day, and, obviously, if anybody else—


[202]       Bethan Jenkins: Is that all day, then? I have something on in the morning, but I could come in the afternoon, though, if it is all day.


[203]       William Powell: That would be fantastic. It runs until, I believe, 4 p.m. or 5 p.m., so it will be an excellent opportunity for outreach, and we hope that the sun will still have his hat on. Thank you very much indeed for your attendance today and for your contributions. Diolch yn fawr.


Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 10:13.
The meeting ended at 10:13.